The Slymepit is Full of Misogynists?

It is unlikely that anyone coming here does not know what the Slymepit.com is, or what FreeThoughtBlogs.com (FtBs) is. However in the event of some poor lost internet soul coming to this post and wondering what the hell this is all about then the dispute between the Slymepit and all it stands for and FtBs is covered in a couple of posts. For the sake of objectivity there are a couple of descriptions from opponents of FtBs and opponents of the Slymepit here ->

This post covers the dispute as an intro to a ‘letter to the slymepit’ or a defence of it.
http://rationalugandan.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/letter-to-the-slime-pit/

As for those anti-Pit, well pretty much anything PZ Myers has to say on the matter would do, so his latest missive  - http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/10/12/well-i-wont-do-that-again/

Also definition of misogyny, having one that only includes people that hate all women is not useful given that is likely to consist of pretty much no one.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2012/10/defining-misogyny/
{edit: Rather than having to read the whole post above I am basically taking misogyny to mean… “Misogyny is contempt, dismissal, hostility, disregard. It’s not just shouting “I hate all women!””}

So onto my fun in the pit, I was reading a few posts from FtBs about gendered slurs and how people often refuse to use racist or homophobic language but quite happily spew out what is misogynistic language. The Slymepit is pretty much synonymous with this aspect of misogyny, members of the pit have on a number of occasions tried to justify using the word ‘cunt’ to describe women they disagree with. I figured that when ‘acting out’ over at their bete noir, FtBs, they would probably not have their best arguments as really all they want is an excuse to shout ‘FUCK YOU FTBS!!1!’… Hence I tentatively posed this question ->

Something struck me about the Slymepit that I have not seen an explanation for. I didn’t bring it up as it is obviously a contentious subject and it has probably been discussed to death on here (I couldn’t see it tho – maybe the old thread). But reading a few posts from Crommunist and Josh the Spokesgay’s comments on gay slurs made me wonder all the more. A lot of people have major issues with the Slymepit due to the use of language here – you are all characterised as saying “Free speech! Its only werds bro!”. For example someone above says

“… that fucking Crommunist…”

in much the same way as I see on here

“… that cunt Rebecca/Ophelia/Zvan…”

same with Twatson, bint, bitch. Even…

“… that faggot Josh…”**

so why do I never see anything like

“…that nigger Crommunist…”

I ask because Josh and others have made some pretty good arguments that slurs like faggot are pretty analogous especially given the level of hate and violence associated with the term. Cunt you may argue is different due to different usages but plenty of women will see it in the same way. But here in the land of words are just words, intent is king… Racial slurs seem to be absent. (Or at least a Google shows lot of “niggers” but they are all in scare quotes – I realise I’ve not been reading much here so this could be my error) Are you all self censoring for ethnic slurs when you justify misogynistic and homophobic slurs as only being words? (You/All = the subset that use/defend the use of slurs)

To be clear I don’t use any such slurs if I can help it as they can offend, annoy and upset by merely being in the sentence. I’m happy to offend, annoy and upset but achieving that through just using a contentious word to degrade a person seems like a self defeating exercise. It is attacking the irrelevant attributes of person when the ideas should be the target IMO.

** NB I got shot down and lost any shred of arguing in good faith from the Slymepit because what was actually said was… “that faggy Josh”, which I have on very good authority (Aratina Cage) is not that different from what I ‘quoted’ above. However the Slymepit is not forgiving of even the slightest mistake, especially if you are disagreeing with them… In fact that is a defining characteristic of how they go about their business; hyper-sceptical analysis of everything FtBs/Skepchick say while not applying the same rigour to their own work.

So what were the arguments presented to counter my point? Well there were not many and to be fair my ‘mistake’ in terms of faggot/faggy probably put them on a back foot…

The UK doesn’t see it as misogynistic

Usually this line goes, in the UK no one sees the word cunt as misogynistic, therefore it is fine to use it! Some examples as it is hard to believe anyone would seriously posit that as an argument for the non-offence caused by using a word. You might as well say no one in the apartheid era South Africa thought using nigger was racist therefore… Also what is it with us Brits that we get to say what is misogyny and who is allowed to be offended by it? I obviously missed a citizenship memo or something as it is news to me… Quote from the pit ->

“I don’t tend to use the word “cunt” but, having lived in the UK for a while I understand that it’s meaning in working class speech is pretty much the same as “dick”.”

The irony that many on the Slymepit criticised A+ for saying “Don’t be a dick”, as using a gendered slur, is burning bright. But really does it matter that in one place in the world this use of the word cunt is fine? I’d personally strongly disagree with the basic premise as a Brit I know plenty of people who would say cunt is a misogynistic slur. However this is to miss the point by a country mile, especially as the internet is not confined to the UK and the audience the Slymepit plays to is worldwide.

“…my taboos are based on my knowledge and experience of the history and cultural environment in which I live. Cunt, bitch, and twat do not have the vile histories of oppression that n*gger and f*ggot do.”

In this persons opinion these words used to put down, ridicule and shame women do not have the vile history of oppression that nigger and faggot do. Well the ‘privilege’ word is bandied about rather a lot but in this case his experience of oppression, or rather understanding of it as I doubt he is a gay or black, does not tally with many many women’s experience. But that’s all right ‘cos his knowledge and experience are all that is needed to make a moral judgement on the use of oppressive language! The lack of empathy and understanding of women’s history of oppression is depressing…

“Where I live cunt and twat means a bastard . No gender specifics”.

“Most of us are from the Commonwealth where cunt, twat, dick etc aren’t misogynistic, just good old fashioned and excellent abuse.”

Again with the, “Where I live…”, rubbish. But here the context is specifically missed out, I clearly say that my objection is to these words being applied to women and specifically women they are criticising. They are using gendered slurs to refer to women they seem to have major problems with. This is a mile away from saying “hiya yer old cunt” to a mate in the UK… A mile away from “wassup nigga” for whoever likes to address their friends this way.

“Nigger and faggot are words I doubt I’d use as I believe they have universal connotations of racism and homophobia.”

So they don’t want to be seen as racist or homophobic, but misogynistic? What we are referring to are statements like these from the Slymepit, and its probably necessary to put some here to make it clear what the objection is – few selected at random ->

 Clueless bint. And by bint, I mean cunt.

…here’s proof that two of the FfTB regulars are utter cunts 

…wastes-of-space like Twatson

…stupid bitch knows all.. she has overcome her own biases and blindspots.

Rebecunt Twatson**

** As coined by a Slymepitter, although interestingly only ever ‘Twatson’ is used on the new pit forum, Slymepit+… Are they ashamed of something?

{edit: Correction from the pit, this was apparently a joint effort on the original pit. Phil Giordiana came up with Rebecunt and Justicar came up with Twatson. So that told me! Maybe ‘Twatson’ is kept as some monument to the fallen given Justicar burnt his Slyme bridges?}

There are also lots of references to the feminists they don’t like being too fat, too ugly, too old or whatever you can think of other than a reasoned argument on why they disagree with them. I won’t even bother mentioning the constant photoshopped images that are sooo hilarious!

Anyway back to the arguments as to why cunt, bitch, twat etc are fine for everyday use in the pursuit of profit and critical analysis of feminist views.

I just ‘choose’ not to use certain words

This was a bit of a bizarre one but given so many asserted this I suppose it needs to be addressed. They seriously suggested the use of words is just a ‘choice’ like putting on a pair of black or brown shoes in the morning. It is not in their vocabulary to use homophobic, racist or gendered slurs and that is the only reason they do not utter them… Honestly, they said this…

“I never ever use the words nigger, or faggot, except in expository or explicatory discourse. That’s not self-censorship, it is because those are words I just do not use; they are not part of my everyday vocabulary.”

“I am in the subset that defends (i.e. doesn’t give a shit about) the use of slurs, though I don’t use them myself. That’s about as amazing as noting that I defend the right of men to cross-dress yet remain in jeans and a T-shirt. They are just clothes, but they’re not MY clothes.“

“I never call black people niggers, because I choose not to; I never call gay people faggots, because I choose not to; I almost never call any woman a cunt, because I choose not to; I never call kangaroos roos or kangas, because I choose not to (neither do I ask them to tie me down Bruce, but that’s another kettle of aboriginals, that is); I never call oolons intelligent, because I choose not to.”

So word selection is just a choice, no motivation behind it whatsoever. Bullshit, clearly bullshit. Mental gymnastics are required to dismiss the reality that they don’t use the words faggot and nigger to describe gay and black people respectively is because… Well one of their own says it nicely…

“I’m fairly new here, but I believe I’m gonna state the obvious about this: Because it’s terrible to imply that our disgust for someone has anything to do with their sexuality or race. “

Let me fix that for hir, Because it’s terrible to imply that our disgust for someone has anything to do with their GENDER, sexuality or race…

But for some reason no one made that leap… It IS terrible to imply that your disgust for someone has anything to do with their gender! Be that gender male, female or anything in-between. Your intent is not the issue, unless that is after it being repeatedly pointed out that using those terms in that context implies you do have disgust problems with their gender or think their gender is fair game as an avenue for attack. It is not fair game to attack a woman because she is a woman or any specifically female attributes any more than it is fair game to attack a PoC for their colour or any supposed racial characteristics they may have.

Woman X said twat once therefore it is ok for me to use that term

The most egregious offender here is Dick Strawkins who, if PZ had not banned Poes, I would be tempted denounce him as one. Some of Dicks finer moments…

“The term “twat”, however, is used by Rebecca Watson live on the SGU, so it cannot be placed in the same category as “cunt”.
I therefore don’t have a problem with using that term when it is appropriate.”

Given Dick and his mates opinion of Rebecca Watson I almost choked on my cuppa reading that, he uses Rebecca as his arbiter of words he can and cannot use! Anyway the stupidity carries on here…

“OK, you cunts.
Let’s see what you can do now.”

“The lines were spoken by Chloe Grace Moretz as ‘hitgirl’ in ‘Kick-Ass’, a movie written by a British woman, Jane Goldman.
It would seem curious that a word like this was used if it is universally recognized as a misogynistic slur against women. “

Hmm spoken by a female character and written by… A woman! The context is important, does Dick think Chris Rock is racist for his niggers routine? Or even more worryingly he heard Ice T use the term in one of his songs so feels fine using it down in South Central LA? I’d like to see that…

Fuck you, I can say what I want

For all their prevaricating and rationalising this is what they mean. A few of them came out and said as much, the offence exists in the mind of the person hearing the word so fuck them. Again I doubt they would apply that logic to racist or homophobic slurs, no in fact I know they wouldn’t as that was the whole point of my question. So full circle and there is no explanation from the pitters of why nigger, faggot etc are mostly absent from the pit but cunt, bitch, twat etc are prevalent.

“As for the cunt argument, I will say once again, it is those that take offense and create drama over a word, that are in control of how it affects them. My speaking the word cunt has no power at all, unless someone gives it power. I am not victimising them by uttering the word. They are victimising themselves by allowing it to affect them.

I am not responsible for how others choose to feel. Dictating what is acceptable language, and demanding that everyone comply is an attempt to control others. It is a power trip. It will work with some people, they will allow you to control them. It will not work with everyone, in fact it will have the opposite effect on people like me. “

Words have no power to oppress people, the victimisation is in the mind of the hearer , just a complete empathy loss? The ‘power trip’ bit is ironic given this is exactly what makes the words have real effect, someone in a position of power over you using demeaning language hurts you. They’d accept this in the case of nigger and faggot, but in the power balance where women are oppressed somehow the same does not apply.

My explanation? Well it would be pure speculation but it seems pretty clear that misogyny and misogynistic language is no where near as taboo as racist or homophobic language in our society as a whole. So basically the Pitters think they can get away with it without being branded bigots, sad thing is in a lot of quarters this is true, they can. They also hate the feminist ideas espoused by Ophelia Benson, Stephanie Zvan, Jen McCreight, Rebecca Watson, etc. etc. and part of their mission is to undermine their efforts so trolling for effect works well for them here. They have little in the way of actual well though out argument so what is left for them?

Conclusion

So given the title, is the Slymepit full of misogynists? In my opinion, no… Shocking conclusion! But I’d say it is full of misogyny and misogynistic language, it is my privilege to not dehumanise and reduce the people themselves to an ‘ist. It is true that they are perpetuating the view that misogynistic language is ok, this is their right, the internet is a ‘free speech!’ free for all… Just don’t expect to be free of criticism for it.

Also one other thing, I usually say some Slymepitter believe… or say… etc. But in this instance it was clear that pretty much no one felt I had even the merest bit of a good point. They are of one mind here… Cunt, twat, bitch when applied in vitriol to your female opponents is not to be criticised. The usual word-police, PC mind control tropes are trotted out and no one there not adhering to this view would survive. I only saw one express the opinion that ‘Twatson’ is not for him and he doesn’t like it…  So hyper-sceptically I have to say that all the Pitters did not join in, but my argument spanned a long period and only one tangentially chimed in with that point, on ‘Twatson’ only.

{This post has been long in the writing as I got waylaid by a bump in the road, but to be clear I started this well before that incident and my attitude to the Slymepit has not changed as a result. This is not meant as an admission of dogmatic pride but I believe I am on the fence/neutral only about two things laid out in that post which no one has been able to refute to my satisfaction.}